|Eddi Reader interviews
8 September 1997
Kensington, London, over lunch in a busy café a few doors from Warner Records.
© Debbie Kruger
They find it difficult to market [me], which is very strange.
I wanted to talk to you about that. I wanted to talk to you about why youre not more famous everywhere!
I quite like it actually, its quite good.
You can still wander around. You wouldnt want to be a Spice Girl.
Yeah, and my kids.
How old are your kids?
Eight and four.
Because I read that the reason why Fairground Attraction disbanded was because you wanted to go and start a family.
What happened with the group?
It was just as dazzling and completely incomprehensible to me as it was to everybody else.
That it finished?
Yeah. Cause I really like hiding behind people and I like, my performing thing is not about so much an exhibition as in its always about doing something that I really like and sneakily pushing it forward, and I dont know why Im like that, maybe Im shy or whatever. So when the band split up it was very traumatic for me, but it wasnt my decision, it was another band members decision, and I dont think that he was in control of his facilities at the time, so he was young, and
Was that Mark E Nevin, the guy who was writing most of the songs?
Yeah. I think he found it difficult, and I have no idea why. I can understand the pressure, but there was a lot of hidden tensions that I didnt understand. I couldnt begin to put my finger on it. Ive had apologies and Ive had, been taken out together and had, Oh why cant we be together again and all that business. But its very difficult for me to make myself vulnerable again to something like that, because I depended so much on it and I loved it.
And youve moved on from there now.
I have moved on.
There was really just one studio album and then there was an album after that which was like a compilation of B-sides and live tracks.
Well the record company did that to make money. We wouldnt have done that. The one that we were making at the time of the split was going to be fantastic, it really was. In fact
Where are all the recordings from that?
Well he used a lot of the songs on the Brian Kennedy album Sweetmouth. I think that all of that was going to be
Goodbye to Songtown
I dont think that they were as realised as they could have been. Brians a great singer but with music its such a delicate thing. Its like anything that we do, our bodies do, our bodies have to be, you know were water, and everything had to be, the chemistry had to be right, and the chemistry was right with Fairground, so consequently anything after that, if someone tried to be Fairground or tried to replace any of the members, the drummer or the bass, it would have been a different feeling and it wouldnt have been the same.
It was quite a funny story how I came across it. I was really keen on this guy who was with a record company in Australia, and he dumped me really badly and then started sending me CDs to try and make it up to me. And one of them was Fairground Attraction. He didnt want to get back, he just felt really guilty cause he was a real arsehole.
Ooh, I wish Id had that. I just get the arseholes that dont feel guilty! Thats great. Remorse brilliant!
Well there was one package he sent me that I sent back cause I didnt like the CDs, and he was really upset. But one of them was Fairground Attraction, and I absolutely adored it. And my favourite song was Whispers, which was your only composition on it.
Ah, that was the one I was allowed!
I often wondered if youd thought of re-recording that on one of your albums with a little bit more on it.
Yeah, probably. No, I havent actually sung that since Fairground, which is quite difficult.
Can you still get up there?
I think Ive practiced it. When someone reminded me of it, and then I was worried that I couldnt, so I went into the bathroom and, yes I can actually hit those notes.
Was that actually inspired by a friend of yours or something? Cause thats one of the most beautiful tributes to somebody.
Oh, mothers. Mother. Mother, really. The mothering instinct which I think is the life force of us all. I think we are all, from a daffodil to frogspawn to bacteria to us, we have the mothering instinct. I think as humans we have the caring thing, but so do lions and swans and, they protect, everything. And I just wonder if it isnt quite
its respected in a way, but theres a kind of twisted value to motherhood. I think men can be mothers, too, and I just
it was a song about my mother and the spiritual mother and the feminine force of the world.
I got that it was either a sister or a mother or a best friend. It was just such a beautiful tribute to another woman. And women dont often sing about other women.
Do they not? Ani Di Franco does, Ive heard stuff. Yes, I know what you mean, theres not a lot of I love you-ness happening.
Yeah. Just paying tribute to somebody who is inspiring. I love that song, I absolutely adore it.
Oh, good. Good, good, it worked.
When I mention you to people Im going to speak to Eddi Reader they immediately say Fairground Attraction. Does that frustrate you after three solo albums?
No, Im scared by it. Because I think, well god, what happens when that runs out, are they going to just forget about everything else Ive done? Which is a shame, I wouldnt like that to happen. But Im proud of what I did there. But I do think that what Ive been doing since is Candyfloss and Medicine especially, and Mirmama, which I love
Well, when I wrote to you I said I just found it and I was just so stunned by it. The self-titled album was the first one that came out in Australia, the Eddi Reader album.
Oh yeah, that one.
I read an interview that you did where you kind of said that you really didnt have control on that album.
No, I didnt.
I mean, there were some nice songs on it, but when I discovered Mirmama, it was like, Ohhh!
They werent realised. I let it go because
I gave it to someone else. The first time. Ive never done that, ever. But everyone, my life was in utter turmoil, so I felt helpless, and instead of saying, Im not going to record until I feel better, which I didnt see the end of it could have been never I thought Ive got to keep going, Ive got to keep, Ive channelled a lot of my energy into finding songs and writing. But I was exhausted very quickly, so when I worked with the producer I tended to buckle under in an argument quicker than I ever would have before and I tended to lose my sense of instinct. You know, my instincts would be telling me one thing and then these people would be telling me that I was completely wrong. And I caved quite a lot. Which I dont respect, and Ive forgiven myself for it, but the result is an album which Im not happy with.
That won your Brit Award.
The award, I know! I couldnt believe it! I know, I had Jarvis Cocker like drunkenly leaning over me saying, Im really sorry I lost your award, showing me his belligerent
He lost your award?
He was to present me with the award and I had to sing Patience of Angels which I love but its not realised on that record. Anyway, he gave me the award and then I had to give it back to him when I went to sing. He said he lost it, but it was a big deal. Do you know what I mean? You know when someone protests a bit too much. I kind of go, look, really, I couldnt give a fuck about the Brit Award either, you know what I mean, Jarvis? Youre not the only one who feels like this. It just felt a bit like, at the time I was intent on getting completely bollocks drunk, and I remember at the end of that Brits Award ceremony holding my thing, and standing outside waiting for my drummer friend and his Reliant Robin, in the pouring rain, while everyone was swanning off to their luxury parties. Jarvis included. Who I admire, but, they were all going off playing that game. And I was standing in the pouring rain at the back of the Alexandra Palace. And this Reliant Robin with its flat tyre and its dodgy gearbox and its dodgy driver and his twin brother, the guitar player, to pick me up after theyd packed all their gear again. So here I was again still stuck in that place that was completely real for me. You see its very difficult for me to be marketed we were talking about that because I dont actually believe in the hype, ever. I cant quite get my head around it. I believe it exists but it doesnt mean anything to me, so its very difficult for me to
I can enjoy myself for five minutes, like get drunk and be hedonistic or sit in a party.
How significant is an award like that in a country that celebrates artists like the Spice Girls?
But weve always been like that. I remember watching the Brits when I was like 10 or something, whenever it started, and I used to think, rubbish, rubbish, rubbish everybody on it is rubbish. That isnt the case. No-one is rubbish. But you know, the dollar and the pound are powerful motivations for everything. And Im not being naïve, I just think that its fucking us up a little bit, you know.
Well I guess why I relate to your work is that you seem to be doing what you want to do and its very personal music, and it doesnt matter whether its a lushly produced song like Town Without Pity or whether its something really intimate, like Whispers or Semi Precious. It has this intimacy that kind of draws you in, and theres a purity about it. Did you ever listen to Heart in the early days?
No I havent.
If you ever listen to any of the Heart albums before they became a hard rocking band, and right up to an album, particularly, called Private Audition that has a song on it called Angels they used a lot of mandolins and they were very folky at the beginning. I mean, they had stuff like Magic Man which was more hard rocking, but they had a lot of really intimate folky stuff, and I just love that.
Im really into the 70s folk stuff, early 70s. Harry Nilsson stuff, and
I find that its almost too easy for me to get someone who has an innate wonderful knowledge of loops and drum machines. I did this with a bunch called the Towering Inferno. All I had to do was sing into a DAT. Now I can do this until the cows come home and then they it away and they turn it into a piece of music. Thats so easy. But for me that wouldnt be what I do. What I do is sitting with people and feel the guitar player hit a note that makes me sing something else, and letting my body go enough into that fearless place that I can completely express myself without worry.
On Mirmama, Honeychild, I just, its like youre transported somewhere, you just go off. Its gorgeous, I really love it.
Its just been released in America as well, Mirmama and Candyfloss at the same time, so Im trying to get some gigs out there. Cause I really think I could play some beautiful gigs in places like McCabes in LA. Id love it. Theres nothing more satisfying than doing things like what weve just done, which is the Mean Fiddler, where 200 or 300 people are just jam-packed in. Its sad because lots of people want tickets and they cant get in, but for me thats really what makes it all happen for me, why I really want to do it, why I wouldnt be with my kids for a week, why I would stay up all night and think about it. Im just obsessed with that kind of interaction between myself, a microphone and hitting somebody when I look sometimes I dont have to look at anybody but if Im singing I can feel it when its really working and Ive suddenly gone away from, its quite Shaman-like, I think, I dont know if thats what Im doing or what everybody else is doing to me and making me feel free enough to improvise. And I never seem to make a mistake, which is weird. You know like, sometimes if Ive performed when Im tired, and I dont have a voice, you might suspect that Ill hit a wrong note. But theres this place that I go into, Ill walk on stage with a really sore throat and I can hardly sing two notes, and suddenly after the first song, for whatever reason, Im healed completely. Ive no idea why, because I couldnt talk all day and I cant talk afterwards. But just for that hour.
Well thats about being an artist as opposed to being a marketable product, and I guess thats where this whole marketing thing comes in because
I will have a problem with it. I have to talk to them today, probably at some point, because on the new stuff they dont hear singles again. Thats usually what they say. But nobody, I dont know why they think they can hear it any time, a single, anyway. Songs are songs, they just are songs, and
So what was released off Candyfloss and Medicine? I know Town Without Pity was the first single, wasnt it?
Which was not a good idea. Gene Pitney did it originally, and it was pretty similar, we tried to get exactly the same vibe, but with me doing it.
So what else was released as a single?
Medicine and that was it. I think they should have released Candyfloss cause its my favourite.
Candyfloss is so beautiful. And Rebel Angel. I could see that as a single.
Its just, you know, like paranoid android, you know what I mean? It doesnt matter.
Thats what I love about doing my radio show. I just play what I want to play. I play album tracks all the time.
Exactly. And I dont understand why radio people dont do that anyway more. Now, Warner Bros have a problem, they have no artists practically that can be played, no serious artists that theyve got can be played on Radio One now. Theyve got kd lang, and they dont even bother to invite the Radio One people to her gigs now, they just invite Radio Two. Its bizarre. Its like, why wouldnt you just play something that somebody releases because you like it. With Trevor Dan, who I know, a little, I can tell that hes sitting there eliminating stuff that he likes because hes looking at the market, hes looking at a certain age group and its a shame really, its fucking us all up. There are all these 17, 14, 12-year olds that arent going to get to hear things, you know. Its another facism, another form of it.
Im just glad that I grew up when I grew up in the 70s, when music was good.
Well I missed it, because I didnt have any older relations.
How old are you?
36. But I didnt have anybody above me.
You werent just buying records yourself when you were at school?
No, no, because I didnt know what to buy, I had no idea, I just, I remember hearing things on the radio, and Id be, oh thats great! And it would be something really inane like a John Denver track or a Bread thing. Which I quite like now. I mean, I really liked it then, I was very romantic. But the first time I seriously got into something grown up was when I went to a folk club and someone introduced me to Bob Dylan. And then I heard The Hissing of Summer Lawns
You were introduced to him personally?
No, just his music, at the Irvine folk club, which is the small Scottish town where we live, near the beach. And I went to the local folk club where it was all very traditional and I remember there being lots of tensions because people werent allowed to sing in an American accent, that was very important. We couldnt sing any song beyond 1918. Any earlier was fine. Which was fine, I respected that. Touchfield Street in Kilmarnock, Kilmarnock was far the most if you sung any non-traditional song people walked out. But in Irvine Folk Club they were a bit more loose about it. You could sing maybe a Bob Dylan song, and this is in 78 or 79! I had this little band with my friend from school and we learned Donna Donna you know, Donovan songs and I learned my first Joni Mitchell song from her, and I learned May You Never from her, Eleanor her name was, and she knew May You Never and she knew how to play Blackbird, and tunings, she knew how to do all sorts, so I learned tunings from her. And then I started buying records then. But before that it was only Gary Glitter and Slade.
Well coming from Glasgow Im amazed you didnt get into the Bay City Rollers!
Well I did a little bit, although I was of the type that was more inclined towards Donny Osmond! David Essex, actually.
When I was living here in 1980 I went to see David Essex in the Dominion on Tottenham Court Road, with my cousin and a bunch of her friends. He was gorgeous.
Did you meet him?
No. I was 18.
Was he greying?
He was beautiful.
It was the Silver Dream Machine. That was the concert. He came down on his silver dream machine. Ive still got the program from the concert, and he still had all his hair colour.
Oh god. He was beautiful. He was beautiful. Theres no way that man wasnt beautiful.
He was. He was exquisite. Well, another thing on the marketing of you, and just you as an artist. The last two or three years theres been quite a penchant for female singer-songwriters. And particularly Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morissette, all those American angst-filled artists. And I like a lot of them, I particularly like Joan Osborne. But again, your music isnt full of angst, and youre not trying to get back at somebody for some horrible thing, and theres just
Because theres this inner peace about you and your music, do you think that thats a disadvantage?
Maybe. [Laughs] Ive got to be pissed off before I can earn some money.
Like, I was really disappointed that Sheryl Crows first album was really laid back, fun, sweet, almost folky, and then she felt she had to turn into a grunge goddess as well, and her last album was all this gut-wrenching angst-ridden stuff.
Well were very cynical, and I like that, I think its entertaining. And I think, you know Im not disqualifying myself from the anger mob, I get really anger and Ive been really angry and cynical on many occasion. I just, what I get from music usually is that Im actually too angry and too cynical so when I hear a love song or something thats about like theres a song by Roddy Frame called Song For A Friend on the album Stray. Theres a beautiful line in it about when friends fade and when people take you and devour you, and he sings it with such a sweetness that in a way you cant get to because of the anger. You cant get to it sometimes. Say if youre with somebody, you really love someone, and you hate them because they dump you or theyve abused you in some way, or abused your trust, and in a way you cant get to the real sweetness because of the cynicism. Its a way of not being intimate, the cynicism and the anger. And anger and all thats really valid, but it is a way of avoiding what you really want, which is you really want to love them and you really want to be with them in a gorgeous way, in a non-conditional loving clear way. And thats what I get out of music. So when Im doing music, Im always trying to reach that point where Im just explaining what the child wants, what the baby in me would want, rather than the grown-up is pissed off about or the 13 year-old is pissed off about or the teenager in me is pissed off about. Its more about what the truth is, which is always just a plea for love in some way. You know Alanis and her screaming out to that guy about having the other relationship when he promised himself to her, its great to express that, I think thats really important, but for me I spend so much of my non-musical moments expressing that in my own head that really what I want to hear is something comforting rather than something thats kicking the shit out of anybody.
Although I like people like Ani Di Franco, oh my god, youve got to hear Ani Di Franco. If you like Joan Osborne and that One of Us song, the definitive song is What if No-ones Watching? What if when were dead were just dead. And shes written a song called In the Boardroom and shes bleeding, shes got her periods, and shes listening to these marketing men trying to market her. The whole song is a very forgiving song but the last line she says, All Ive left with you is a stain on your chair. From her blood. Shes never had a record deal because she doesnt believe in record deals, and shes made about eight albums and shes a millionaire, shes just done it on her own, she goes around, she wears gaffer tape on her fingers cause she hits the guitar so hard. Shes a fantastic writer. I think Alanis Morissette used to go and watch her play. The song is What If No-ones Watching. Theres a recent one which is very angry; shes always been very hurt by somebody or another. We dont know who it is. Shes bi, so she writes about women and men but shes very ambiguous about where her sexuality falls; I think she must be bi. She talks about how beautiful someone is combing her hair. One of the songs is, shes watching a girl combing her hair for this man whos abusing her, and she cant believe that something as beautiful could be worried about something that ugly.
The persona that comes through in your music is very much the mother, the nurturing, the feminine. The whole Candyfloss and Medicine album, the insert, is you being totally out there feminine, that babydoll dress where did you get that dress?
I got it made, I designed it, I had this idea for the whole thing, trousers and stuff, and then we got the trousers, and it was I have this friend in Glasgow who makes wedding dresses so I asked her to make this thing. But you know its got little lights in it, so it has a battery pack and I can
I like the image of you reaching for the childs arm. Is that one of your kids?
No thats her, the photographers kid. Genevieve shes a great photographer. She doesnt use flashes and we tried to get really natural light.
I ordered it over the internet and I got it on import from Japan it was the only place that it was available.
You should check out the American one now, because the American one Ive taken off Town Without Pity, because I got pissed off with it actually. I got really pissed of with the value that the marketing people placed on it.
Something that wasnt really relevant to what you were doing.
Yeah. It was only meant to be, its fine, but its not representative. And I took it off and Ive put two other things on there. Sugar on the Pill and Shall I Be Mother. And If Youve Got a Minute Baby.
Thats on the Japanese one.
Its supposed to have strings on it. Im really upset with it because every time I hear it I can go, no-ones hearing these strings! But they wouldnt give me five thousand extra to do that.
They being the record company.
Yeah, we had a fight about that. Its very difficult for them, because I dont make them tons of money, so its very difficult for them to be
Im always in the position where theyre either chasing good after bad, in their eyes for me its just a healthy presentation of an art form, but its difficult. Its a very difficult
Im in the best position I can be in, being in a big record company that has money to spare, if you like.
Well there are artists like Seal that surely can finance you a little bit.
Exactly, yeah. Come on Seal!
So have you been recording another album now?
Yes. We did it in two weeks. Ive got it in my bag. We went to Chipping Norton which is where Fairground made the first album; it was like going back to some place special because theres standing stones there. And its all very hippy and Glastonebury type. We spent one week and we did 14 songs. And then Ive spent two weeks mixing them all.
Are these the same musicians that you worked with on
Yeah, mostly, except the bass players different because he comes from here. For one song we have five different mixes of it. This is the master. But I have to actually get these and put them on one DAT format and give them to the marketing people who will discuss how old I am and how invalid I am.
When is it due for release?
Theres no release. I dont even know if theyre going to release it as anything.
If they dont will you send me a tape of it?
Well Ill let you hear something if we go back to the, I want to see if theyve got a suite in there that does copy DAT to DAT, cause then I could do it all here.
So you basically, you feel ready, you have some work and you just go in and you put it down?
I have ten songs. I would like to have done another, theres one song I didnt get to do which is a cover of a Mississippi John Hurt track that I wanted to do because its just a bit more humorous, and then everything else is beautiful and all that, and I just thought if I put a little bit of this humour in then it dissipates just a little bit.
Do you like the McGarrigle sisters?
Yes I do, I love them.
I love their stuff and I discovered them through Linda Ronstadt.
Ah yes. Do you know Linda Ronstadts early stuff? Cause I want to get some of that. Ive not heard anything. Is it good? Cause Im very attracted to it.
Ive got everything shes recorded.
Oh really? I just looked her up on the internet, cause I wasnt really interested for a long time, and I looked her up and I thought, Im really interested in this Stone Poneys thing because it fills my fantasy.
Its very simple. A guy in Q described it as great soundtrack for you if youre standing in a wheat field.
Of course journalists dont do that kind of thing. Those NME journalists and the Q journalists are too busy reading Loaded in the bathroom.
I like listening to it in the perspective of her whole career. I love it. I particularly like the stuff that she did in the early 70s.
Shes got a great voice. Have you heard the Mexican stuff?
Yeah, Ive got it all. Have you heard her lullaby album, Dedicated to the One I Love?
That was the last one. She adopted two children
Yeah I heard about this.
She never married and shes now 51. So shes adopted two children. And shes at the stage in her career where she just does what she wants to do. And she decided she wanted to record pop songs as childrens lullabies. And shes very much into she produces herself now and shes very much into multi-layering and using instruments like glass armonica and things. Everything from Queens We Will Rock You to the Mamas and the Papas Dedicated to the One I Love and the Beach Boys In My Room. And its just so sweet.
Oh god, Ive got to get it.
Particularly good if youve got little kids because its very gentle. She said, I did for my kids and here it is. But shes actually got a thyroid disease now. She had a whole tour of the States, A mariachi tour this year, and she had to cancel it. Shes got something called Hashimotos Thyroiditis, its a chronic thyroid inflammation.
Its not only that all your thyroid points inflame, its actually like a chronic fatigue thing. Shes just completely debilitated. So she went home to Tucson to her family. Cause she lives in San Francisco. But her early stuff is lovely.
Have you spoken to her?
That is my great dream.
Just ask her.
I would have tried this year. Like any American star shes got a lot of management people, and I have spoken to her manager for something else Im a publicist back home as well as a journalist, and I was publicising a music festival that we tried to get Linda to come out to do, to sing with an orchestra, and I spoke to her manager, but she wasnt available. So I was going to approach him about meeting her, and then I heard shed gotten sick and I just thought theres no point asking.
Where would I play if I came to Australia? In a small Mean Fiddler
Yeah, youd want small venues. Theres a venue in Sydney called the Metro which can hold anything up to a thousand but is perfectly okay with a few hundred. Do you know Tim Finn?
He does shows in there. Lisa Loeb came out and played there
and its usually standing only unless they put seats in especially. There are small venues. This is the thing with Australia, theyre either nice small intimate venues or 3,000-plus halls. So you wouldnt have any trouble finding small venues. I just dont know whats going on with your record company back there. I rang them first before I came over to find out what plans they had to release Candyfloss and Medicine, and they didnt know.
Ive just got a manager, a new manager, because I didnt have one, I was just wandering around going okay, and not answering calls, so its been a bit hectic. But for two years Ive done all that. And it was my birthday the other day so I just decided to get a manager on my birthday. I said, go do my work for me, please. Hes Billy Braggs manager, Peter Jenner, and Im going to see him today for the first time.
Well if that ever actually happened, that you came out, Id love to help at that end. Ill do the publicity for it. Im your champion down under.
Oh great. Ill send you a DAT copy of this if I get it working today. Ill send you a little comp pack of things weve done.
Thanks! The music is just so sumptuous. I remember when I wrote to you it was like a paragraph full of all these adjectives and I thought, shes going to think I sat here with my thesaurus trying to come up with all these words. But Ill never forget when I sat down with Mirmama and I put my headphones on so I could just relax, and I just couldnt believe what I was hearing. I was just so transported.
Sometimes I get surprised too, cause its not just me, you know, these boys that I play with, Neills a great player, and Calum you know theyre Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seegers sons, you know, he wrote The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face and Dirty Old Town.
Some of the guys you played with on Candyfloss and Medicine then went and played with kd lang on her Drag album.
No, well Teddy Borowiecki, Teddy has always played with kd. But I heard him through Jane Siberry, when I got Jane Siberry Bound By The Beauty album, and Teddy played this solo that was the most out-there solo Ive ever heard in my life, and I dont like keyboards that much, so I was very surprised to find myself phoning him up. And when I did the Eddi Reader album, when my head was a mess, the producer said, Ive got this keyboard player that we can use, and it was him. And I couldnt believe it.
There was another of your musicians
Dave Pilch. Well, Dave is a bass player and he knew Greg Penny. You see Greg Penny knew Teddy and Dave, and he called them in when I went to LA. What was amazing was that Dave Pilch played on my most favourite album at the time which was Mary Margaret OHara Miss America, he played the bass on all of that. And I was in the company of the best musicians Ive ever played with really. So I pulled them in for Candyfloss. And by the time of this new album I found a bass player in Britain thats equivalent to Dave, so I didnt have to get someone over from America. Ive got Tim Harris, who plays with Steelye Span, hes a great folk player.
Its interesting about kd lang because I think the Drag album is the best thing shes done in such a long time; again its back to the personal and the intimate, she kind of went so commercial for a while there.
Well I feel really responsible for a lot of the reasons for why she got to do Last Cigarette, because I was told by Teddy, who was in my house living with me, that he was doing the album with kd and she wanted to sing about addictions, cigarette addictions, and should we try and write something? And I remember thinking, immediately my attenae goes a song about cigarettes, Boo has one already and I called Boo up and we got a tape together and gave it to Teddy. And he went to LA and within two weeks Teddy called very nonplussed and said, oh kd recorded that song, tell Boo. Of course we were all very excited. Because were pretty down to earth, us, you know were not, I mean we have really good times, we like to live in that fantasy world that we are in amongst the stars and everyone is, but you know we dont
What I am trying to say is that we are very romantic and we like the story behind things rather than me, Boo, Teddy, Roy were all a bit maverick I think. Were all pretty untogether as far as being, playing the game. I dont think we play whatever the game is.
And as you so aptly put earlier on, if you did and if you had all that hype surrounding you, you couldnt sit in a café like this having a chat, you couldnt walk the streets, whatever, and who needs that?
Its very scary, all that Fairground stuff. Because when we were on Top of the Pops the next day I went out in the street and it was very scary, folk coming up asking me for autographs. And I remember someone shouting across the street, Youre that I dont want girl! you know, which is the first line in Perfect I dont want half-hearted love affairs. And he called me I dont want Look everybody, its I dont want! And that was very bizarre, and Im not, when someone comes up and asks for an autograph I kind of go, well, why? What do you want? Do you want to talk about something? I love it when people come up and go, I really like what you did and I really think that youre fantastic. I think thats great when someone does that, especially when youre maybe a bit down or something. But no, its no overwhelming by any stretch of the imagination. Which is great.
I found Pefect was a bit of an odd song out on that album, anyway.
Well I knew at the time that it was definitely the single, but I knew that if we didnt get the other stuff first then that would be it, wed have that and then no-one would listen to anything else. That wasnt quite what happened, but there were people that loved Perfect and hated the album, or hated Perfect but loved the album.
I didnt hate it, I thought it was cute, I just much preferred Smile in a Whisper or whatever
We used Perfect at the end of the set to cheer everybody up because we were because we were all full of, the rest of the songs were all full of angst and break-up and love gone wrong, so Perfect was thrown in at the end of the hour to make everybody dance a little bit, and it worked perfectly for that. So to make it the single was just missing the point a little bit, to make it the first single was missing the point.
Like Town Without Pity.
But they were right its a great single, and it was fast and furious and still exists, which is great.
Do you want another coffee?
I was just thinking we should try and go next door and maybe get these, and then we can find a quieter place.
[We then went into Warner Records where Eddi played me tracks off the album that would become Angels & Electricity.]
6 December 1999
By phone Byron Bay to London.
You do a lot of guesting on other peoples albums, dont you.
Im really interested in that; I really like being tested and pushed, really
learning someone elses melodies is always really good for my brain, I think.
I get the Honeychildren list just to find out what people are saying about you.
There was an argument the other day.
So you actually get it, do you? Have you seen this guy who says he interviewed you and hes been giving all these other people a hard time? Its so childish.
Yeah, I know who youre talking about. It was really strange, I did a gig in St Ives, it was such a good gig, and the band were brilliant and I felt really good about what I was doing, and I felt like the spirit of Patsy Cline and Piaf were in my body as I walked on stage, you know. And I had a great time and this guy was set up with the record company in America, Compass, so I arranged that he could come to the dressing room. And he came in and of course hes an interviewer, and theres this magazine hes working on and it was all very important, so he came in and we sat down and he was going on about how great he thought the gig was, and I thought that was really nice. But he didnt have any questions, he didnt ask any questions. Maybe thats his method, and Ive never seen an article, but he didnt ask any questions and sort of seemed to follow us around to go to the pub and everything. I just got a bit of a vibe, and the next thing I know theres some flaming going down on the Honeychildren thing, and I thought oh my god, thats that guy.
Hes seriously imbalanced.
I know. I think that sometimes theres a few gaps in the veneer, in the membrane, that we shove ourselves into when we walk about our daily lives. It really freaks me out that you can stand on stage or be on the telly and then suddenly youre inviting everyone in. It doesnt feel like I have to but it seems to me youre setting yourself up in a sort of way. Thats one thing that puts me off the whole fame game, I mean, I really love what I do, but the fame thing is just something literally quite frightening to me. I find anybody thats going for that strange. And I find anyone thats already in that world, I find that it bends their attitude to life a little bit, you know. I had Tori Amos on the telly, and I really like Tori Amos, and shes going on, she looks beautiful and her musics wonderful, and its really strong, and shes going on about, and shes asked you know she went on tour with Alanis Morissette, and Im watching it, you know Im sanding the floor and watching telly cause Im doing a lot of DIY, thats my thing now; people say have I done any work, and I say, well I kind of did the bathroom floor I was watching her and she said, she kind of described it as the two of them on tour as a sort of two powerful strong women thing, and it sounded really good what she was saying until she totally blew it at the end she set it all up as you know, we are two powerful individuals, we have our own thing, my crew they do this, her crew were doing that, we didnt get up on stage and sing together because she thought that would have been wanky. Then she said something about Alanis Morissettes bunch, she said In my crew we had a lot of alcohol and stuff like that and Alanis Morissettes crew had a lot of hair products. And I just thought it might be witty and I did think it was witty, but I also thought it was very hypocritical because she was not only sitting there with lots of make-up on and her hair really done up, it was just you know, okay, if youre going to speak truth just make sure, just check what boundaries youre crossing. Because I think the worst thing that women can do to other women is bring them down. Who gives two monkeys whether Alanis Morissettes crew have hairspray. Its just about setting yourself up to be better than all the time, its a kind of policy, a competitive Oh but shes crap because she wears hairspray, so I must be great. You know by definition youre saying I must be better. And its all about that, and I cant be bothered with it. It seems to permeate all aspects of the fame game, which I dont think Im in.
No, youre not. I was listening back on the last interview from two years ago that we did and you were talking about the Brit Awards, and how you went home in your beat-up old Reliant Robin. And all the hoo ha with Jarvis Cocker and everything, it was quite funny. We actually got into quite some depth. But when I was mentioning before how I get the Honeychildren list, Im always amazed by all the little things that they say that youre doing, or the little albums that youve suddenly appeared on. I cant keep up with all that stuff, I mean its impossible for me in Australia to access all that stuff that youre on, so its really interesting. I think I emailed you, there was a concert that you did that was actually on the web, and I was able to sit here and watch the whole thing for an hour, it was really cool.
Really? Did you download it? I couldnt find it. Im completely bad on the computer, its really really frustrating.
It was really beautiful, but like youre watching like a two-inch square video on the computer, but the audio was great. But listen, I want to ask you some questions about your songwriting, because this magazine is called Performing Songwriter; I dont know if youve seen it, but its really nice. I just had a piece in one of their recent issues on Beth Nielsen Chapman. Do you know her?
Ive heard of her, I havent got anything to listen to.
You should check out an album called Sand and Water. Its the one that Elton John was going on about, it helped him through his grieving when Diana and Gianni Versace died, because she wrote it after the death of her husband from cancer.
Yes, I did get it, yes, it was lovely. I thought shed come out of nowhere with this brilliant dedication to someone whod passed.
So the editor of this magazine loves you, so Im going to do a little piece.
When we talked about Fairground Attraction last time, you said that Whispers was the only song of yours that you were allowed to have on the album. How much were you writing back then and how frustrating was that for you to have such little control over the content on the album?
Well in retrospect I can look at it with a keener eye, and I think that, at the time, if I was to watch a film of my life Id see that this girl came along with her insecurities and her working class-ness and just turned up in London with her amazing ability to communicate song and an amazing obsession with song and singing. And thats what I did have, and I mean, Im not saying I dont have parts of that now, but I had it then to such a great extent that I would chew up everything and analyse everything and seek it out and I wanted to sing and play and write. So I wanted to do the whole thing. And a lot of what I was writing was very naïve and a lot of it was very melodically great and catchy but not very well thought out. By the time I got to do Whispers I was maybe hitting on something that was getting a bit more clear about how to make a song. But because I was really under-confident anyway, and really not secure that anything I did was any good and I think lots of people are like that, I think lots of people have abilities and talents that they just dont know, that they have a love for; if I hadnt had the obsession I would have dropped it, got married and had seven kids at 21 and I would have lived the life my mother led but because I had an obsession with it, it sort of fired my head to go and seek it out and theorize on it and love it. So writing was a sort of secondary aspect of it.
So when I was with Fairground I was writing and I was coming up with some lovely little ideas, and I think they were really good, and Whispers I really loved. But the writer, who I admired immensely and always deferred to as the real writer in my head and I do that a lot with most writers because I see their craft and I love their craft, I see where theyre going with things, I see what theyre trying to say, and its my base materials for my thing so I really rested a lot on this guys opinion. And unfortunately he wasnt particularly developed emotionally himself, so he tended to, hes the type of guy who tends to judge everybody else as not good enough. And that became acutely intense for me. Once Id signed on the dotted line, I realised that most of the stuff I was coming up with I would never even begin to know how to even bring it to the table because I was in such fear of this guys opinion. And also I was proved to be right enough times to know that it was a dangerous area. Ive been working with Boo Hewerdine now whos a completely different kettle of fish; hes some guy who will come in and Ill have one line all week and hell just sit there and hell play it and hell play it and hell play different chords behind it and Ill play different chords and he wont let me leave it alone. Ill throw something out all spontaneous and vomity and just free association, and hell tape it, hell collect it, hell play it back to me, hell go, See? See how good it is? So I abandon myself a lot quicker than someone like that does.
But I didnt have that when I was with Fairground Attraction, I had someone who was really quick to bring me down. So I ended up losing a lot of confidence in my writing and with Whispers, Ill tell you what the funny thing was. I was extremely Catholic, and I was really into the Madonna in Madrigorie, you know before the war in Yugoslavia, and its still going on now, there are six children who see a vision of what they say is the Virgin Mary, or the Mother of Jesus, Mary the Mother of Jesus, who comes to them at six oclock every night. And I used to be obsessed with finding out about this, because I believe in something other than whatever this just is. So I was seeking it out. And I wrote Whispers about mother and the maternal, and the taking care of, and this is the right path, and Whispers for me became something that wasnt written by me but something that I was helped to write because of my spirituality at the time. And so therefore when I went to the band with Whispers I was fighting on behalf of Mary the Mother of God! [laughs] So it was easier for me to say to everybody, look, this is really good, its really important, its really important for me, and so no matter how many times the main writer said this is a weird song which he did do, or this is strange, this doesnt work, it really didnt affect me because I seemed to have this faith. I mean eventually it got so bad that the guy just couldnt stand me bringing another persons song, never mind my own song.
So it got really destructive, and therefore the very essence of why we got together was completely demolished. Because the reason why we got together was because I was very hungry to be singing, I was totally in love with Edith Piaf, I wanted to sing vignettes in waltz time. I sang Piaf in a restaurant in London and learned everything phonetically. When I met him I played him all the Piaf stuff that I knew and I wanted something like that, I wanted stuff about prostitution, I wanted stuff that was about the sort of rag and bones
all the bits that get tossed away, about, you know, palm readers, stuff that we all find tacky but has romance in it and hope in it, which is why were attracted to it. And I wanted all that, so that when I was travelling with Fairground and when we got together that was very important. So when it slowly became more of a fight every time I went in to suggest another kind of idea or a move to this direction or that direction, I could tell there was a power struggle that was beyond me. And my grandfather always told me never fight battles you cant win, and I couldnt win that one. It was like being in a goldmine without a shovel. This man, capable of writing wonderful songs that I could definitely communicate, but I couldnt get past him to get to them.
And thats the way it was, and it still is to this day, even 10 years later. When I did Mirmama he managed to come and camp outside my house and to cry and to moan about what he needed and what he wanted. It was like being in a marriage. And then after that when I did the Brit Award things it was all, Id get phone calls saying, remember 90% is mine, if you get it for a song of mine 90% is mine and 10% is yours. He was just very very insecure and now even, theres a little bit of money that I get from Fairground still, I get 12.5%, and hes stopped that now. So even if you hear it on radio and even if people love it and I love it still, I love it and I play it live sometimes if I feel in the mood and I just think its part of my history that I was forced to move away from and so therefore, you know, when people ask me, Jesus, why did you leave that it was so good? I kind of go look, okay, Im actually fed up with it. The truth is it was my band, I loved it, I wanted to nurture it, I wanted to keep it, and I actually got ousted. It became a thing where if I went into rehearsal, every part of me that was creative and gorgeous was grabbed, claimed, owned by someone else and then disparaged and brought down.
You did say to me two years ago that it was devastating to you when the band broke up. Tell me do you remember the first song that you ever wrote, and when that was?
Yes, a French song
[translated as] Ive got a little pretty cat and a pretty bird. I think I was about 10 or something.
So you were speaking French when you were 10?
Well I really liked French, I really liked the language, I liked the way it sounded, and we did French lessons in primary school, for some weird reason, I think it must have been a Liberal year or a Labour year.
Were you writing this on a guitar or on the piano?
No, no, no Id just sing. Piano was really good, because my grandmother had one, and I used to do all the black notes, so Id play, Id call it, like The Singing Ringing Tree was a program that was on when I was growing up, it was like this little gnome who would cast a magic spell and this ringing tree, this tree would shake and all the bells would ring and everything would stop and hed fix everything that had gone wrong. So I had this piano and Id write butterfly music. So Id put my elbow on the top of the black notes and then fan my arms down all the way down and then all the way back up, and Id do it for hours and hours and hours, and my granny would get really really upset. But that was my butterfly music and I used to love to go to Grannys to do my butterfly music. And that was my big deal. And then I wrote little tiny melodies on there. It was all by ear, never was I classically taught or any theoretic stuff that I did attempt later on, I just
My ear can do it quicker. So I know how to space bars and I know how to write chord charts, but my ear can do it quicker.
How much of Scotland and your upbringing are in your writing?
Im not sure. Im sure that a lot of people outside that culture could tell more than I can. When Im improvising and Im doing melodies a lot of people hear a lot of traditional qualities within it. Traditional melodic qualities. Usually Ill come up with the melody first, anyway, then Ill use parts of my life which obviously includes
like Glasgow Star is really about growing up in Glasgow, but specifically from the age of 15 through to 20, or 15 through to 18, which is when I lived there on my own, well, ish. I lived with my grandmother and did a bit of busking in town, stuff. That was my first venture into singing out loud.
You remarked to me last time that London didnt really feel right, that you were even thinking of moving back to Glasgow.
Oh, all the time.
Do you think theres any sense of displacement? Im really interested in geography in terms of where somebodys from, not only spiritually but where they actually are in the world, and if somebodys not really where there heart is, whether that comes through in their writing.
Well I do notice that when I go home, even if its for five minutes, like I went to Edinburgh yesterday, I immediately felt like I was very near an electrical power supply of some kind, that sort of zonks me in the bottom of my spine and works up through to my fingers and brain, and I kind of felt that. And if I do go home I feel that, I feel that theres suddenly space, space to write, space to be creative. And being in London Im like a sponge, I pick up on everybodys vibe, so the vibe heres pretty hectic and constantly changing, so I find Im constantly DIY-ing my house, its like the (?) Bridge I start painting at one end and then by the time Im finished Ive got to start again. I dont know why its like that. It never ever seems tidy or clear from clutter, its just a London vibe, and I think thats what I like about Scotland when I go home, but I think that if I came from
it is true, I think that if youre home-less, which is sometimes what I feel, when Im in the right environment, when I feel Im in a home, a more me environment, then I do get more creative, definitely.
Well, being that you work outside the mainstream, why dont you move back?
Well, because Ive kind of got a bit trapped. Ten years ago if youd said to me that a little brown building with a pointy roof would have been dictating to me my every movement, which is what my sons school does
so I have two boys and they go to a little brown school and I have to be there at nine and I have to be there at three-thirty every day.
But there are schools in Scotland.
Well they have, but I just know that it would completely disrupt their lives. Which would mean disrupting me for a year, too, because Ill have to be there to support them. At the moment I can go on a tour and get my mum down. And this is their home, its not just my home, its theirs now; theyve become sentient beings, they have addresses and phone numbers, and its like, they have their own memories now, and Im frightened to monkey about with that a wee bit. Although I do think that there are opportunities, like in the summer holidays, thats always a good time for bringing out that old idea of why dont we move, so we go up to Scotland, sometimes we look around. But then again, the other question is where is home? If it isnt inside me, where is it?
I have that problem all the time with the triangle of Los Angeles, Sydney and Byron Bay
If I was in your Byron Bay place Id use it for writing a lot.
Well I think you should come visit and write.
Yeah, that sounds great. People do it to me all the time Just come over! And now Im kind of making choices, and it feels like the choices could be really drastic, like I like writing and I like singing, I love it, but I really like painting as well and I really like bringing up my kids and I really like getting my home environment
I think thats what it is, its finding a home that I can love and nurture for ever and ever. And I want it to be by the beach, so figuring out what the scenerys got to be and then maybe taking it from there.
Well Joni Mitchell did that. Joni Mitchell bought a house at Malibu and painted and made music. I dont know if she was bringing up children.
Well there was obviously a great sense of freedom on the Mirmama album, talking about getting out of the Fairground Attraction thing. Is that still your favourite album?
Yes it is. Although I listen to Candyfloss and Medicine, the America version that doesnt have Town Without Pity and I really love a lot of the work on that. I think that Teddy Borowiecki did some great piano, I just think that was mine and Teddys album and I love him as a musician, Ive never heard anyone who tickles me as much as him. Jane Siberry tickles me, but I discovered that Jane Siberrys album Bound by the Beauty, which is the one I really love, has got Teddy all over it, and then working with him, Teddy Borowiecki him doing the Candyfloss and Medicine album was just a wonderful moment in musicality and musical education for me.
Its interesting because Mirmama came after the whole furore with Fairground Attraction and the devastation of losing that, and Candyfloss and Medicine came after another very unsettled period when you recorded an album that you described to me as you basically handed over control because you were in too much of a mess emotionally. And its almost like both of those albums have a sense of joy. And on Mirmama I really really get that.
Theyre my two favourite albums of yours.
I think it is its through the level of love you let in. I think if the level of love, if you can open up enough then it becomes really analytical. I mean, my last album Angels & Electricity, theres a lot of really good work on it. I havent listened to it since we did it, which is a problem.
No I cant listen. Maybe four years or something goes by and then Ill listen. It takes a while, it really does. Its too, its too
I dont know what it is. Its not like I dont like it or I dont what to
Its like Ive put it away. I think maybe its just cause it exhausts, I exhaust so much, its just really full of undiluted stuff that I cant quite listen to it until Ive gone away and had a think about other things.
So you havent listened to it for a couple of years.
No, not Angels & Electricity, I havent listened to that. Ive played the songs live, and then I always get surprised when I hear the recorded version, I think, oh hell, why did I do it live like that, why dont I do it live more like this? And I forget sometimes, it sort of develops on its own. But I think that Mirmama I have listened to and I revisit it and I think, oh my god, you were great, woman! You were so good, you picked yourself up and you just went into that place and you had such a good time, and everybody was fancyable and everything was beautiful and the sun was shining and I remember just all of it being very very positive.
So youre still too close to Angels & Electricity to be able to judge or ascertain where that sits in terms of your body of solo work now?
Yeah. Just a bit too near.
I love Psychic Reader.
which I think is one of the tracks you played me when we were up at Warner that day, you remember you played me a few tracks from the DAT. Its really reminiscent of Cinderellas Downfall, which is kind of like that whimsical free-flowing melody, and I found it really interesting that it seems to be the only song on Angels & Electricity that you wrote alone. And then again with Whispers. Theres something about the whimsical, that when you actually I mean, Im not saying that your other songs arent free-flowing and whimsical and beautiful but when you actually just let go on your own its like your muse just takes over and its like fairies pick you up and carry you off.
Well Ill tell you, its really really bizarre, because Ive been doing all the DIY in here and Ive got this eight-track DAT machine, its cost me £2000, and I wrote this song for a BBC TV program called "Shes a Good Girl. The TV program was called Real Woman. And I did that, I just went in, and I was determined not, for the first time, Ive started to feel that every time Ive think about writing Ive started to have rising doubt about who to bring into my house, ie nobody. Why should I bring anybody into my house to do this? I dont want to do that. Im starting now to feel that I really want to just sit in front of a microphone and let rip with whatever comes out, and then if it isnt you know a technically
I think Ive been surrounded by people who are very technically good at what they do and it can be threatening, because I make up chords. Im like Pheobe and Friends, I sort of get finger shapes and make them up. I dont know what the names of them are. I dont have the energy and I dont have the desire probably to really learn what Im doing as far as that is concern, technically Im not really wanting to. It wouldnt make any difference to me if that chord was an A with a B bass or a C bass or a D with a G bass. It wouldnt matter. Because what ultimately matters is the sound that it makes when it comes out of the plectrum. And my vocabulary is limited on guitar but what I have got is well used, and if recently Ive been hovering around the sander its because I kind of dont want to go out into the world and do what Ive been doing in the past, which is totally rely on other writers to come and provide me with some platform. Which is why I guest on a lot of peoples stuff, cause I do like collaboration, but there is a part of me which is coming to the surface now which is saying very definitely to me that Im letting myself down by not trusting exactly what comes out of my own brain and putting it onto paper. And I have trusted it in the past, but its kind of scary to have a whole album of that.
Its really interesting to hear you talk about this now, youve definitely moved into a different space than you were in two years ago, because you talked a lot about the joy of writing with your boys, with Teddy and Neill and Calum, and youve written beautiful stuff with them, but its great to hear you yearning now to maybe do it on your own. Because Ill tell you, my favourite Eddi Reader songs are the ones youve written on your own.
Well it would be good, and what would be really brave of me is to sort of stand up and say, by the way, this is who I am spots and all, and not worry that its not got the right number of chords in it or the right number of middle-eights, you know, just let go. And I think its partly because I wasnt really when I was in my 20s I dont think the climate was right for that. Theres a lot of negativity around and theres a lot of negativity even through Fairground days and its all very hi-tech synthesized if you remember when Fairground came out it was quite a joke that we had skittling noises. It wasnt taken seriously that we would use an acoustic guitar in the first place. So the climates got a lot better throughout the 90s for free form expression.
You were kind of ahead of your time.
Well I like to think so but I dont know. I think that I was probably behind the time as well. You know its kind of like if time is ongoing, its just a case of getting on a bus and it stands outside your door, and I think the bus has been outside my door for ages, it keeps coming and going and coming and going, so I have to actually get on it and
Cause I get very frustrated, too, I see people doing that, I see people just picking up their guitar. And Boos fantastic, hed just say look, its lovely the way it is, its gorgeous, and Ill be like, but it was so easy, it was so easy, it cant be good, because it was so easy I dont say that to him but it feels like that. The Good Girl song I wrote for the BBC last month, that was, I like did it 10 minutes, I rubbed out a George Michael cassette and I put it on the back, sent it to the BBC thinking that they would say thanks but no thanks, and they just loved it. And it was exactly right for their program. And then I have to kick myself up the backside for not appreciating or not trusting my own instincts, and thats what its about, its about learning to trust that you are right, what you are do is right, it doesnt have to be judged by anybody, and even if it is, who cares? So its about that, and its really difficult, you can do it cogitatively, you can sort of analyse it and you can go to therapy and get it sorted out, but in essence I am a working class girl with lots of hang ups because of that upbringing in a very class oriented culture, Britain, and I am in a very class-oriented city.
Yes you are.
A lot of people go, how did you get from the slums of Glasgow to getting number ones and having record deals and singing and allowing that to happen? Because thats what it is. And I think that was a very interesting question someone asked me, because sure, its about obstacles and its about hurdling them, and I think that if it hadnt been for having the equipment physically which maybe I got genetically through my mother, because she had a great voice then I dont think I would have pursued my creativity as much. I would have maybe done the art course and gone to art college, but I would have ultimately given up because I would not have believed in myself enough, which is what all northern working class people are taught, even now, in schools I see it even now, in inner council state schools I see a lack of belief in what they can actually achieve.
Are you a prolific writer? Is there always a song being written in your head? Or is it more disciplined?
Theres always prose and poetry, always. Always poetry happening, always.
Are you always looking for a scrap of paper to write on?
Yeah, Ive got lots and lots of notebooks, and all of them are half full so I always buy a new one. I havent done it for a while actually, Im starting to let my worry about how Im going to finance me and my kids affect me going and buying these lovely ornate books I used to buy these really ornate beautiful writing books, and the paper, it was like having an orgasm, all this white paper, and then a beautiful rollerball pen and I would write just ten tons of anything. Some of it Id look back on and think, god that was great, I dont remember writing that. And other stuff, like for example Ive kept my writing from the age of sixteen and its all nonsense, but its good nonsense, its free form funny nonsense and witty nonsense. But when I was going through ten years of absolute shake up, I was in a snow dome there with Fairground and marriage and babies and divorce and ten ton of shit, and debts and all that crap, and tax. Life was a lot simpler when I could just busk and hide from the tax man. It just seemed to all be time to grow up or something. And when I look at the writing from that period, some of its really vitriolic and really hateful, and other bits are really sad, you know, talking about
I dont even know how to begin to describe it, just a lot of it was quite vitriolic, sexual anger and anger at previous beliefs, anger at god, anger at humanity, anger at who were supposed to be versus who we really are.
And yet you said before that when you write you start with a melody, so do you come across a great melody or create a great melody and then go to your notebooks?
Yeah, usually. I mean, or whats happened recently is I get the words and the melody immediately at the same time. I did one yesterday which I think is called Well Chart a Course or something like that. Small Soul it might be called. My friend up the road, she signed on for benefits, and she did a cleaning job and she got £12 cash. I really love this woman, shes a great woman, shes brought up two kids on her own, and she sometimes comes down to my house and we sit and chat and shell help me out by looking after my kids or Ill look after hers, whatever. Its just weird that weve come from two opposite ends of experience but we end up having a very common ground, ie bringing up kids on our own. And shes extremely wise. And some horrible person told on her to the fraud people. So then these tiny little men with their binoculars started following her for two weeks, and they noticed that she put a hoover in her car, a little cheap second-hand car that she got from her brother, and followed her and for two weeks this is public money thats being spent on this and theres big posters up saying if you know a benefit cheat phone us up, and I feel like writing to them and saying, no, but I know a lot of really rich bastards that are getting away with paying no tax, do you want me to give you their names? The ones that spend six months of the year in Bali and then come back. So her benefits have been stopped and so the kids are in jeopardy. So I went in and I wrote this song about how they made her, she looked like 13 chewing her nails, and I thought that these people, these judgements can affect you so badly that you cower and you reduce yourself cause theres something in you that believes that theyre right, that youre bad in some way. But the song was great because it just came from the bottom and went to the top without any structural change needed or lyrical change needed. Which totally surprised me, and I really liked it because it was all daft little guitar lines, I played about three guitar lines on it, and that was it. And it reminded me of everything I love, you know, the Tim Hardin records and some early Tim Buckley stuff, and I thought, well, why cant I just go with that? And then that voice comes in saying, ah, but thats too easy, it doesnt sound, if youve not worked enough
But I think its about letting myself believe that its valid.
Does the quality of your voice direct the melody or the lyric writing for you? Because I get the feeling that some of your songs probably couldnt be sung by other artists, or certainly not as well.
I dont know. What I do get is an emotional sense of whatever it is Im singing. Thats what happens. Ill be singing and Ill break my own heart, and I wont know why. And then I have to figure out what the hells going on, what the hell am I thinking about when Im singing that.
I was just thinking that we did a blues the other day with Boo and Roy
thats why I love collaborating because Boo will just come up with some brilliant chords that will free me from my own vocabulary on the chords. So it just means that I do more if I collaborate than just what I do. When Im sitting with Roy and Boo, Boo was playing this kind of blues riff and I went, yeah, thats brilliant, and I started singing and improvising, so we got to this thing that was obviously it started with a Bo Diddley melody and went into a very un-blues melody, in fact its almost, well I dont know what it sounded like, but I could feel what I was feeling when I was singing and making up noises. And so then I had an exercise with Boo, and I said what did you feel when you heard that, and he said that he felt this thing and I agreed that that is exactly what I was feeling. So, thats the point where people say it isnt me thats writing this, cause really it is you but its almost directed of its own volition, its like a primal scream of some kind or a primal moan if you like, and it comes out and it dictates to you or is a bit of a truth, it gets through your ego and thats what magical about it, it can actually get through your ego, and once it gets through your ego then it stands on its own in defiance and therefore its, it might be for example you want to sing about an extra-marital affair that someones having or something and you feel you cant keep it in, its just there, you cant unsing it and you cant unfeel those feelings, they are there, so you feel them and theyre strong and are powerful and its really important that that is associated with that lyric then from that day forward.
Sometimes Ill write a song and Ill have lyrics that I really like, like in Shall I Be Mother on Candyfloss and Medicine. Shall I Be Mother I really like, but I had a whole different set of lyrics that came out very spontaneously, and I regret some of them not being in there, cause even when I sing it now Ill still sing those lyrics.
And why arent they in there?
Because we make a judgement, dont we? We can edit and we get to the stage that we think for that moment anyway that that line of thought on that song, I mean sometimes an angle, you can have two, the prism of the song can shoot out many angles. In essence the song is about what its supposed to be about, the mother thing, where you mother somebody, like the Yoko Ono thing where you are the mother and because you are the mother you cant be the lover and because you are the mother you cant be in a relationship with a guy or whatever or another person. You cant be the sexy lover and the mother, you can only be the mother because mothers cant be sexy-ish. Do you know what I mean? So the core of the song Shall I Be Mother is exactly what its meant to be when I mumbled out the melody while Teddy was playing. But then I took it to Boo and then we collaborated on the lyric and he came up with his idea, bouncing off of what I was suggesting and then I would take on board some of that and create other stuff, so, but the very first thing that I did, which was, which I cant remember quite now, but sometimes Ill sing it and Ill think, where did that go and where is it and what can I do with it now, and is it too late, or can it be
It couldnt even belong to another song because it only belongs to that melody, to that melodic movement.
Going back to what you were talking about with Mark Nevin, although you werent naming him by name, that writer, you said that the relationship is still difficult, but you had Kiteflyers Hill on Angels & Electricity, which I think is a standout track. He definitely seems to know how to write for your voice quite perfectly. Was it just a case of he offered you a song, or you went to him for a song for that album?
I think without being arrogant, Im such an obsessive, rather than he knows how to write for my voice, I think I know how to pick the songs that suit me. And that song was written in 94 and Ive held on to it in my head for years, it was one that I didnt want to let go, it was one that I heard him play that I loved. Youve got to understand that the relationship was quite, for all its insecurity and fraughtness what was really obvious, for all Marks bullying about my songwriting, what was really obvious was that he really depended on me to be in love with what he was doing.
To bring his songs to life.
Yeah. I had to love it first. And there were many bits of his writing that I wouldnt be in love with. But when I heard something, its the same as everybody, you get a film that you love and thats it, you love it. And that was one of the songs that I loved. It was just a matter of getting it. And if you notice on a lot of the albums, apart from Mirmama, theres always a Nevin track I think.
That one is just such a stand-out track, its such a gorgeous track to open an album with.
Its beautiful. We did KCRW in LA, when I was doing the Eddi Reader album, which was after Mirmama, I was going through a divorce and my immediate reaction was to reform Fairground, or find comfort in Mark who was not only a collaborator as far as walking through this life together, but he was part of my history, so I felt I could return to it after having my Mirmama experience, I felt like I was generous enough to say that we could do an album thats only your stuff, if thats what you want to do, and I can also do my work somewhere else, another album. I couldnt quite make both of them, I couldnt get them to not negate each other. That was what was difficult for me because he wouldnt, he wasnt interested in joining them. I was, but he couldnt, so when we were doing, so do to the Eddi Reader album, which was actually called Hush, I was going to do a whole batch of his songs and one of them was Kiteflyers Hill
When I Watch You Sleeping
Caught in the Tide which is a wonderful one thats gone I cant its like this wonderful song that I cannot get my fucking hands on! Its the best song and I know that it would relate to everybody, a million different people in many gorgeous ways, but
What do you mean you cant get your hands on it?
Well its in the grasp of the writer and theres no way that, the only way, when youre having to deal with people, it isnt as simple as just doing music, youve got to deal with personalities. And I am totally of the opinion that everything thats happening is right. So Kiteflyers Hill was one of the songs that I loved, so when we were doing that album, we did KCRW and we did all those songs and Kiteflyers Hill and it was beautiful, it was so beautiful. We did it with Teddy Borowiecki, favourite keyboard player, David Pilch on bass, me singing of course and Mark playing guitar and Roy drumming. It was the best, we did all of the songs, it was just so beautiful, the work, the songs that he had written and the ones that I liked, it just merged and it was wonderful and we were doing that album and the producer of that album, who was frankly just somebody who was just called in by the record company to do the album, he and Mark hated each other, I felt like I didnt know who was the devil, because I was just getting to know mark again. I believed in the music but I couldnt get them to record it. One wanted to use a computer, which was totally wrong, and the other one wanted to be free form but he couldnt stay in time because he was too nervous. So I had this situation where I was paying, I was haemorrhaging record company money in Ocean Way, LA and finally Mark walked way and took his songs with him, and one of them was Kiteflyers Hill and left some of them, said but youre not doing this and youre not doing that because these are important songs to me and Im not letting that guy touch them. And he was probably right, but what I was left with I had to salvage an album. So I called in Boo and I also did a bit of writing myself with Teddy and we got Patience of Angels together. So that wouldnt have come out if this all hadnt happened.
But I didnt speak to Mark again until I was doing the last album. I didnt speak to him because he let me down really badly. He didnt just walk out on a producer who really isnt anything to do with anything, he walked out on me again. So he walked out on the Fairground second album and then he walked out on us again, and he was the kind of man that would do that if he didnt get his own way. So I was beginning to feel that I was mother and I had to go and try and coax him into believing that we all loved him, and although I didnt mind doing that at the time I had nobody loving me so I felt really kind of crazy. And I felt abandoned and let down, so I left it. And when I was doing Angels & Electricity I called him and asked him if I could use Kiteflyers Hill and he said yes and we recorded it, I spent the money, I went into the studio, I got the record company to pay for more time, it was just before Christmas, and we put it on tape and I loved it and it was sung beautifully and played beautifully all live, and then just before Christmas we got a lawyers letter saying that he had withdrawn his permission. So it was just a bit like that, because Id sung a the where I should have sung a something else. With Mark its about that, its about I want control, so it was a word that he didnt approve of, upon instead of up to or something.
But we still had this beautiful track, so by this time I just told the lawyers to deal with it. So I think someone told him, look shell try her best to fix it, if you really want it to be changed shell fix it, but dont phone her again and bugger off, quite frankly, you know, its just too much. A beautiful track, sounding really lovely nobody else is singing your tunes really gorgeous. And so I released the one that we have with a tiny alteration and you cant hear it Im sure, I defy anybody itd be a good competition wouldnt it find the break in that song! It was one take from start to finish but theres one little word thats dropped in, you have to find it, and its a one-syllable word.
Ill go look for it and email you when Ive found it.
And its very near the beginning.
Getting off Mark Nevin again, then, how did you get the Ron Sexmith song? Because I know when we spoke two years ago that you were raving about him, youve always raved about him. Did you actually ask him to write a song especially for you, or was this one that already existed?
No, I asked him. It was one of those moments that I knew that that this writing was just something that I could really wash myself in. So he started an email correspondence with me and I started to just push him a wee bit, listen have you got something that I could sing, itd be really fun, and also we both had a couple of parties together so we got quite philosophical about everything and we seemed to have this idea that things happen quite spontaneously and its always like on a whim, which became the song. But I think its a really great song. I love his writing, though. I sing Lebanon Tennessee sometimes. I think so does Shawn Colvin. Its funny because the one that everyone talks about, the Secret Heart one, its just not his best, theres like tons that are just so much more
Some of the writers we talked about whom inspire you include Ani Di Franco and Roddy Frame. What are the qualities in the work of artists like them that inspire you? Is it different in each one? Or is there a common thing that you pick up on, on a particular writer? Because theyre almost always folk writers.
Folk singer-songwriters are mainly the ones youve always mentioned to me.
Well Ive got this bizarre infatuation at the moment with Jane Siberry, and I logged on to Sheeba, which is her website, and I bought some videos, and all of her stuff is quite electronic and quite, I suppose it was in the 80s and stuff, and Im never ever into that stuff, Im not, I really am not, I cant stand it most of the time, I find it abrasive and edgy, I cant be bothered. But I really like what she does. I like her head. What she talks about is really important, you know, the way shell allude to
shell skip all around the point but youll get it through the melody, and then finally shell have one line that nails it and then youll explode. There was one song that she was singing recently at the Borderline which Id never heard before, and my fathers just died last year, and she sung this song about, she had a dream and her dad and her mum were skipping along and her dad was falling on his ass in the snow and her sister was chatting and moaning about this, and she went on and on, and the chorus was I had a dream, in my dream, in my dream
Finally six minutes later you get a line saying, And no-one is missing, and you kind of get that shes talking about somebody thats not there any more. And I started weeping and I looked around and theres at least three guys all of them sniffing and snotting, and I just thought thats so clever that you can do that, play about with the feeling with what it is and then only identify it very briefly so that it isnt hammered out all the time, which is what I find very tiring and tedious about the pop industry and the pop game.
So these different artists that you love, Ani Di Franco etc., is there something unique in each of them that touches you and inspires you?
Well with Jane Siberry its a melodic thing, but with Ani Di Franco definitely its a lyrical quality, shes just very good at descriptive terms and great at making a couplet work. Tim Finns like that, too. Just really smart work. And Roddy Frame, too. Theres a couple of his songs, that I just read his album covers, I dont hardly ever listen to them, which is really daft, but I love reading his work. And my brothers band, The Trash Can Sinatras, great poetry. John, the guitar player, he writes, and Frank my brother writes, they all write, but Johns poetry is really brilliant and so is my brothers, but, just reading it, I dont know why people miss it, its so good for the soul.
So what do you look for in another writers work that makes you want to cover it?
Well I only do covering if its related to me, I mean, only covering in so much as somebodys is sitting in front of me and Ill go I want to talk about that lampshade, its green, and that will try and get it to work, or hell go away, like Boo went away and wrote Follow My Tears. He only had the chorus and then I sung it, and I sang the melody to him and he went away, I sung a kind of groove melody, and he went to sleep and came back in the morning with all the verses of what we were talking about before, which is displacement. So, covers like Town Without Pity
Yeah, and Fred Neil, that kind of stuff.
Yeah, Ill do those older ones because they touch me in real ancient ways, I dont know what the point is, but Dolphins really gets me it gets me when he sings it and it gets me when Tim Buckley sings it, gets me when Liz Fraser sings it, so theres something about it thats just freeing. I havent heard Beth Ortons version yet.
I didnt know she did a version.
She did a version and I think The The did a version, so did Billy Bragg, I think its a well used song. I like Si Kahns, What You Do With Youve Got the lyrics to that Si Kahn song that Dick Gaughan used to play in folk clubs, I heard that and I turned into a different melody and everything.
So that song originated as a different
Yeah, Si Kahn. Theres a guy called Si Kahn who lyrically he was a trade union leader in the 40s or something in America, and he wrote whats a brilliant
If I hear something well for example Lebanon Tennessee its just all Ron Sexsmith at the moment, Im totally, theres nothing, I cant find, everything that I need to sing about at the moment is in his catalogue.
Lyle Lovett has sung that, I was just reading a review of Lyle Lovetts new live album, he does that Sexsmith song.
Wow! Great, thats fantastic, its a fantastic tune. I play it in D and I alternate the bass, and its just, Ive always been in love with D, playing D, and hes just used it really well, hes used that chord really well.
Do you have a favourite song of your own, that youve written?
Well I am really fond of Psychic Reader actually, but, let me think
I suppose recently, I really like what I did the other day, which is called Small Soul I think. Id have to have them all sitting in front of me and go, oh, that one.
But youre not one of these people who says oh no, theyre all my children and I cant choose one.
I just dont remember the bloody titles! Theyre moments of spontaneous gorgeousness that Im not experiencing right now, so I experience some other kind of gorgeousness. I tend to disown them; if they are my children Im a terrible mother cause I do disown them, I just kind of move on and I cant remember how they originated and I cant remember if they were got together by me and Boo or if it was all of us all in the room, which I guess causes a problem occasionally when I cant remember, you know. Like sometimes well have a song, and Ill have gone, alright, so Roy was here, Boo was here, Cal was here, and Ive forgotten Ted was there, so I wouldnt have written it down, and then it becomes lost in the mists of time. And Teddy goes, I was there, by the way I wrote that bit. Alright, okay, sorry.
Youve mentioned how your record company situation, when we talked a couple years ago, was affecting you in many ways. I know youve got Compass in America now, but whats your situation in the UK and internationally? How is whatever that current situation is affecting your writing, are you feeling more liberated in general?
Well Im feeling that the pressures off, which is great, and Im not really a part of something which I thought was pretty tacky. Ive got, Im waiting for Geoff Travis to get Rough Trade together again, which should happen in the early part of 2000, and I think Id like to do an album on Rough Trade. Its kind of a well respected label. I know that they had Lucinda Williams and The Smiths
and he sold off Rough Trade to various people and now hes in the process of getting it back. And also, I want to get a kind of traditional album, but traditional in the sense that I just use traditional songs and I turn them into, you know, kind of like The Blacksmith
So theyll all be covers.
Traditional songs, ancient writing that Ill use to sing with, Ill use what I remember of them and then play about with the melodies, which will probably have the traditional society hating me, but I dont really care, I just want to keep them alive in some way, songs that I think deserve to be heard still.
Is that your next project then? Will that be the next album?
No its just one of the
No, I think the next album will be me writing in between me sanding the floor in the back room and it will be all that emotive stuff which is from start to finish just me, and then once Ive got that out of my system Ill start working on the other projects.
So I guess if you dont have a deal yet with Rough Trade youre not actually up to a point where you want to put down this album?
No, I dont want to do that until Ive really got what I consider really me out there. If Im going to release something its going to have to be genuinely me, I mean genuinely. I dont have any reason to do it otherwise. I cant think of any reason to hang on to the belief that I should just make albums willy-nilly, you know. I really have to know that what Im doing is purposeful. I can actually go into the back room and make lots of music and have it on tape. The step from taking it from the tape recorder and putting onto a CD that is then given out to people, I have to know what the purpose of that is, and the purpose for me I think will have to be will have to be that it is a genuine communication that I want to make, a kind of thing that I want to, I want to heal in some way not heal, thats too pretentious but definitely be a bit of currency to help in the positive side of the scales rather than the negative side of the scales. I want it to be positive and I want it to be joyous, I want it to make an impact on whoever listens to it, I dont want it to be thrown away by a record company. Its too important, you know. Thats what I dont like about big record companies, it just becomes not important after two weeks if theyve done their usual parties with the radio pluggers and the press people do their usual phone calls, and then its over for them. But it isnt over for me and it isnt over for many of us that write and struggle to be true. So giving it to a record company to handle and then throw in the bin when they cant get the billion-selling platinum triple billion zillion million any kind of metal thats much more precious that whatever Ive just said, you know, album. If they cant get that then they really really arent interested, and thats why its got to change, because humanitys humanity and we are all crying out for something fine all the time.
How important is America? Is the deal with Compass just for Angels & Electricity or is that going to be an ongoing thing?
I think its going to be ongoing. I really like them, theyve got a little pink house in Nashville and they have my award for Mirmama they got an award for Mirmama, some kind of independent release something, in 1997, which is amazing, because I made it in 1992. And there you go, it got totally ignored by the British record company and it got totally ignored by everybody except, even now, its what got us the gig at KCRW in LA. Its what people like now. The energy was good so thats the only way, you know youre right is when the energy is good and it comes bouncing back at you.
Youve never thought about going and spending a couple of months in Nashville writing? Which seems to be the songwriting capital of the world.
Its just Ive got kids, you know. Everything would be different if I didnt have them, in a lot of ways. Like I would be able to get on the bus or the plane continuously, rent out my house, do whatever I like. You have two little beings, and like its not my time right now and I have to swallow that really, thats my karma. And its okay, its meant to be. And I have brilliant times with them, and so I want to do it with them now. If we go to America I want to do it with them. I want to go to Canada, I want to live in Vancouver for six months, I want to try to get them taught in Canada, instead of smelly old here. Its just I know that its a big, London is just terrible for state schools, there are so many that are bad, and the ones that are good are very far away.
Canadas very fertile musically.
I think so and I think that Id love to try it there, its just you know, the boys are 11 and 7 now, so Im watching them grow more and more independent of me every day. And therell be a point where I will try that I think. I did phone up the immigration department.
Well thats a start.
It is a start, yeah. Ill just see. I would like to maybe get this place organised and then rent it out and just go, and it will be an adventure and it will be wonderful, and we can come back if it doesnt work out.
© Debbie Kruger
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